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The Missing Link: Lost & Found (Official Discussion)
September 25, 2015
7:28 pm
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Mr. Tidwell
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Even how has this:

I don't wanna die and burn in hell, I wanna live honourable, and do well,
but how, how do I stay on path, when I see somethin' fucked up I wanna laugh?
How do I honour, my dead beat father, who walked out on two kids, like why bother,
and left my mother with poverty, fuck my dad, I wanna slaughter thee?
Look at this world and all the Gods, how can I not look at all the odds.
Ya got Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Jah, Give Praise, however you was raised.
How do I not wonder who's right or wrong, how do I keep my believin' strong?
How do I make it to Shangri-La, when the worlds so fucked up, damn its hard?

That's like the preachiest verse on both albums and it specifically says it doesn't matter what religion you belong to just believe in something.

that's decidedly unchristian.

 

September 25, 2015
7:35 pm
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LuckyNumbrXIII said
They talk about Satan pulling you into the depths of Hell for being "lost."  Yes, they talk about a missing link, and yes I suppose if you really think about it you can substitute any belief with the "link."  But does anyone that doesn't believe in God actually believe that Satan will sink his claws into you and pull you into Hell?  What a horrible life to live... not believing in God, but believing in Satan.

I always interpret their talk of the devil as emotional so maybe I'm just being blind to something. Like, their hell album talks about two kinds of hells. The after life and an emotional hell that takes place in the real world. Hell, shangri la does the same thing. There's "heaven" in the clouds and then theres hanging out with your homies. Shit, Shangri La actually means "HEAVEN ON EARTH". 

When they talk about the devil they're pairing it with the outro "I see the Devil" where they specifically use devil as a way of describing people who have let their darkness take over them. When they say "i see the devil every time I fuck a bitch, take her number and throw it in the ditch" they aren't saying theres a red dude sitting there rubbing his fucking goatee like yeeees. No, he's the devil. he's corrupt and evil because his link is missing. And it isn't the sex that's evil, like it would be for christians, but the attitude towards women. Juggalo party opens with getting his dick sucked and his girl bouncing and they're happy to be together even though she's mostly not even in the song. 

 

September 25, 2015
8:40 pm
DrFreshness
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LuckyNumbrXIII said
I feel like ICP are writing about God... however, they don't want to alienate fans, so they show tolerance.  Which, there's nothing wrong with that.  I mean, I was raised Catholic... so I look at the world a certain way.  But I realize I'm not the center of it all, and other people feel differently.  Some people feel comfortable thinking we're randomly floating on a rock through space and when we die, we disappear from existence and consciousness.  I can't wrap my brain around that, because of how I was raised and how I interpret the world.  

 

ICP are always very tolerant.  They realize juggalos come from all walks of life.  But, it's hard for them to write from the point of view of a muslim or atheist, because that's just not who they are.  So, I think it'd be naive to think they're not talking about God as their missing link, and getting dragged to Hell by Satan for not believing in [faith].  You don't get dragged to Hell for not believing in unicorns.

I've thought about all of this quite a bit also, and I just don't think there's a clear answer.  I want to agree with Rob- what the message is really about is faith and positivity wherever you find it, and the only reason we're hearing the word "God" is because that's how J finds his own missing link personally and that's how he expresses it.  But I'm not 100% sure that that's what's going on, as opposed to something that's not really so open-minded.  

What sketches me out more than anything is the fact that POD is opening on this tour.  From what I've seen those guys are not just a band that happens to be religious, they're hardcore evangelists who are out to convert people to Christianity.  If that's really what their deal is (and I freely admit that I might be wrong about that, somebody please correct me if I am), that's some shit that should have no place on an ICP tour.

ma I ohw tnia I nmaddog
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September 25, 2015
8:43 pm
DrFreshness
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I will add that if I had to put money what the real story is, I'd bet it's that J is conflicted about this issue and not sure himself.

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September 25, 2015
9:27 pm
scruffy
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bayAreaShaman said
They say pretty clear that get god or u aint shit but then in interviews they say the link is to have faith. Faith in anything just have faith. If u have faith i think it takes the weight of ur shoulders and back so u can have thr space love and freedom to live a happy life.   

thats whats known as backpedaling.  refer to the first interview, where j says words to the effect of, 'ima put it out there:  were straight up talkin about god'. 

But i can absolutely see how that can turn alot of people off. Even alienate a good portion of juggalos.   

again, the fact that they seem to think they dont need mec is what turned me off, long before any other aspect of the records. 

 

all this interpretation is fine, as interpretation.  when it starts to become doctrine, then we really got a real fuckin problem. 

 

and, while these interpreters interpret, id say they are making perfectly valid points...  but i still could and might have responses for them, pro or con. 

one thing i wanna mention now is...

LuckyNumbrXIII said 
I feel like ICP are writing about God... however, they don't want to alienate fans, so they show tolerance.  Which, there's nothing wrong with that.  I mean, I was raised Catholic... so I look at the world a certain way.  But I realize I'm not the center of it all, and other people feel differently.  Some people feel comfortable thinking we're randomly floating on a rock through space and when we die, we disappear from existence and consciousness.  I can't wrap my brain around that, because of how I was raised and how I interpret the world.   

again, fine points. 

the underlined, however, is why i dont generally like to discuss spirituality with religious folk;  that is a big hurdle that is oft encountered and impossible to get past. 

i have no trouble envisioning anthropomorphic deities in the clouds, pantheons on mountains, sun gods, or even great multi-headed beasts that breathe fire and demand sacrifice.  all of which are or were taken quite seriously by rational people. 

basicly, i cant wrap my brain around how you cant wrap your brain around it. 

shrug. 

ICP are always very tolerant.  They realize juggalos come from all walks of life.  But, it's hard for them to write from the point of view of a muslim or atheist, because that's just not who they are.  So, I think it'd be naive to think they're not talking about God as their missing link, and getting dragged to Hell by Satan for not believing in [faith].   

pretty much. 

You don't get dragged to Hell for not believing in unicorns.   

nope.  nor are you considered 'lost'. 

nor do you have people talkin to you bout 'you need unicorns', or 'i feel the touch of unicorns, thats how i know theyre real', or on and on et cetera ad infinitum.   

funny thing is, there really are a few flakes out there that actually do believe in unicorns.  they still dont talk like that. 

yeah...  ill stop now. 

 

DrFreshness said 
I will add that if I had to put money what the real story is, I'd bet it's that J is conflicted about this issue and not sure himself.  

probably.  

  awfully paranoid, arent you?   

September 25, 2015
10:39 pm
bayAreaShaman
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They have said in the past they they do believe in god wish for us to find god but just want us to believe in something. I think its not back pedalling but just building up on other stuff. They feel "god" so thats what that rap about out. To explain themselves constantly on the music would sound like butt. I think they thought of us finding faith period during its concept. Just in my opinion.

I cant grasp how us floating on a rock sounds crazy. As a guy who believe s in god i know each is a possibility and to me personally both exist. I cant wait until i go with god and my friends and become part of a planet flying thru space for all eternity in one shape or another. I cant talk to anyone. Not the religious folks not  the atheists i always get a sense of like "they are so stupid and im so high and mighty i got it figures out blah blah blah." im not implying any of u i promise. But yeah most of what i said has already been said i guess. 

I think even if they loose thier faith they wont let us know even if tbey dont believe in it. I think they care more about giving us hope for this shitty life even if its false....same reason why they dont do drugs infront of people if they ever did just weed and alcohol and barely even that. They dont want to make it worse. Im done with my rant.

Ithink all in all im just greatfull they are helping and making the world a better place.

YOU KNOW THEY AINT NO SUCH THING AS LEFTOVER CRACK!!!- Leftover Crack

September 25, 2015
11:11 pm
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bayAreaShaman said 
To explain themselves constantly on the music would sound like butt.

yeah.  id like to think they arent gonna go down that road, but ya never know.  its icp, they could end up doin almost anything. 

at the same time, to constantly front about what they believe would probably sound like butt, too. 

I cant talk to anyone. Not the religious folks not  the atheists i always get a sense of like "they are so stupid and im so high and mighty i got it figures out blah blah blah." 

biggest problem with the whole issue. 

biggest problem with opposing sides of any issue, really. 

  awfully paranoid, arent you?   

September 25, 2015
11:22 pm
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Yeah u said it scruffy...

 

YOU KNOW THEY AINT NO SUCH THING AS LEFTOVER CRACK!!!- Leftover Crack

September 25, 2015
11:25 pm
King Lucem Ferre
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I maintain my agnosticism. I find it hard to grasp how anybody could say they know anything about a higher power when people can't even truly grasp the concept of free will. That goes for atheists and theists alike.

 

Faith is such a silly concept to me. Nobody really has pure faith. There always is a reason why people believe something or some piece of proof that convinces them to believe. Maybe it's the feeling you get when you pray. That's what you use as evidence to justify your belief in god, there fore you don't have pure faith. Maybe it just all seems to make sense to you, so then you don't actually have pure faith. If I trust that somebody won't steal from me that's because I use the evidence of them never have stolen from me before. By definition I can't really call that faith. By definition I don't have faith in anything. Music has been my thing. I don't have faith in music, because I have proof that music is my connection to happiness. I think true faith is insalubrious to intelligent thought. Semantics.

 

Job.

September 25, 2015
11:27 pm
DrFreshness
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bayAreaShaman said

Ithink all in all im just greatfull they are helping and making the world a better place.

Definitely agree with that.

ma I ohw tnia I nmaddog
map deman sehctib taf gib nikcuf syawla m'I
September 25, 2015
11:29 pm
King Lucem Ferre
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DrFreshness said

bayAreaShaman said

Ithink all in all im just greatfull they are helping and making the world a better place.

Definitely agree with that.

Trying at the very least. Not enough people will even try.

September 25, 2015
11:40 pm
DrFreshness
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King Lucem Ferre said

DrFreshness said

bayAreaShaman said

Ithink all in all im just greatfull they are helping and making the world a better place.

Definitely agree with that.

Trying at the very least. Not enough people will even try.

I think they're doing a whole lot better than just trying, without a doubt. 

ma I ohw tnia I nmaddog
map deman sehctib taf gib nikcuf syawla m'I
September 25, 2015
11:53 pm
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King Lucem Ferre said
I maintain my agnosticism. I find it hard to grasp how anybody could say they know anything about a higher power when people can't even truly grasp the concept of free will. That goes for atheists and theists alike.

 

Faith is such a silly concept to me. Nobody really has pure faith. There always is a reason why people believe something or some piece of proof that convinces them to believe. Maybe it's the feeling you get when you pray. That's what you use as evidence to justify your belief in god, there fore you don't have pure faith. Maybe it just all seems to make sense to you, so then you don't actually have pure faith. If I trust that somebody won't steal from me that's because I use the evidence of them never have stolen from me before. By definition I can't really call that faith. By definition I don't have faith in anything. Music has been my thing. I don't have faith in music, because I have proof that music is my connection to happiness. I think true faith is insalubrious to intelligent thought. Semantics.

 

Job.

Faith to me is basically giving myself up to the unknown. So im trying really hard to think of sense of proof i find in my faith but i cant. I dont pray. I do i guess sometimes but i dont use words. I can count on my hand how many times im im postive ill have fingers left over. My faith is my trust in the unknown i guess? I guess i can never grasp the concept of freewill because my own mind will forever keep me incarcerated and will limit me. But i try. Maybe faith isnt helpfull to intelligent thinking. But to have things constantly explain to us just speaks of our self importance the world is marvelous and mysterious. 

Altho u make so prefect sense to me and is 100% reasonable. Still to me its pointless. U cant reason with god or faith. U cant reason why ur so right ya know? 

YOU KNOW THEY AINT NO SUCH THING AS LEFTOVER CRACK!!!- Leftover Crack

September 26, 2015
12:06 am
bayAreaShaman
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I hope i made a shred of sense...

YOU KNOW THEY AINT NO SUCH THING AS LEFTOVER CRACK!!!- Leftover Crack

September 26, 2015
12:09 am
bayAreaShaman
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I hope i made a shred of sense...

YOU KNOW THEY AINT NO SUCH THING AS LEFTOVER CRACK!!!- Leftover Crack

September 26, 2015
12:56 am
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LuckyNumbrXIII said
I feel like ICP are writing about God... however, they don't want to alienate fans, so they show tolerance.  Which, there's nothing wrong with that.  I mean, I was raised Catholic... so I look at the world a certain way.  But I realize I'm not the center of it all, and other people feel differently.  Some people feel comfortable thinking we're randomly floating on a rock through space and when we die, we disappear from existence and consciousness.  I can't wrap my brain around that, because of how I was raised and how I interpret the world.  

 

ICP are always very tolerant.  They realize juggalos come from all walks of life.  But, it's hard for them to write from the point of view of a muslim or atheist, because that's just not who they are.  So, I think it'd be naive to think they're not talking about God as their missing link, and getting dragged to Hell by Satan for not believing in [faith].  You don't get dragged to Hell for not believing in unicorns.

I don't think they're any closer to christian than they are to muslim, though. Their belief system isn't a stated belief that you have to believe that Jesus christ is your lord and savior blah blah blah. I think, at best, there are a few religions that line up with their personal beliefs fairly well. The Baha'i faith is one that I think they would love, for instance. It's primary belief is that all religions are different ways of connecting with the One True God but that it's impossible for us to understand the One True God in its entirety so it presents itself through different faces. Sort of like the allegory of the blind men each touching a different part of an elephant. One has his nose and says I've got a snake! and one touches it's skin and is like I got a rhino! and one has it's tail and and is like I got a giraffe. And so on. 

And you're right, you don't get dragged to hell for not believing in unicorns but you might feel like you're living in hell if you don't have anything that inspires you to grow and be a better person than you were yesterday. For me, it's art, but I think of art as no different than any religion. It's an attempt to understand the divine.

With ICP, they're limited by the language of our culture. There are millions of gods, but because of our culture, because of where we live, we stick that word to mean one specific understanding. And slight differences of perspective in that word cause huge divides in culture. Catholics and protestants murdered each other for not believing in the same god. And now christians and muslims and they're both basically trying to connect to the same history. It's ridiculous. If we take them at face value, if the Carnival is GOD then we have to accept that their beliefs aren't specifically about a christian god. The two are fundamentally incompatible. So then what is it? In the essays that I'm writing I refer to it as The Great Unknowable Being because that's the only way to talk about it.

But again, I might just be trying, subconsciously, really hard to not hear them speaking on "jesus". 

 

DrFreshness said

What sketches me out more than anything is the fact that POD is opening on this tour.  From what I've seen those guys are not just a band that happens to be religious, they're hardcore evangelists who are out to convert people to Christianity.  If that's really what their deal is (and I freely admit that I might be wrong about that, somebody please correct me if I am), that's some shit that should have no place on an ICP tour.

But stitches and dope dod are also on the tour... 

DrFreshness said
I will add that if I had to put money what the real story is, I'd bet it's that J is conflicted about this issue and not sure himself.

YES. I often think of them specifically as "sort of agnostics who don't realize they aren't christian"

 

King Lucem Ferre said
I maintain my agnosticism. I find it hard to grasp how anybody could say they know anything about a higher power when people can't even truly grasp the concept of free will. That goes for atheists and theists alike.

Faith is such a silly concept to me. Nobody really has pure faith. There always is a reason why people believe something or some piece of proof that convinces them to believe. Maybe it's the feeling you get when you pray. That's what you use as evidence to justify your belief in god, there fore you don't have pure faith. Maybe it just all seems to make sense to you, so then you don't actually have pure faith. If I trust that somebody won't steal from me that's because I use the evidence of them never have stolen from me before. By definition I can't really call that faith. By definition I don't have faith in anything. Music has been my thing. I don't have faith in music, because I have proof that music is my connection to happiness. I think true faith is insalubrious to intelligent thought. Semantics.

Job.

I'm firmly in the atheist camp but I generally agree with this. Our brains are entirely too limited to understand everything out there and they aren't likely to evolve into something stronger that will understand these things. It wouldn't serve any purpose, at least not directly. And that's fine.

Often times the "proof" people have for their faith is in the way our brains work. we get off on certain kinds of ideas because they were beneficial to us in the past. 

bayAreaShaman said

Faith to me is basically giving myself up to the unknown. So im trying really hard to think of sense of proof i find in my faith but i cant. I dont pray. I do i guess sometimes but i dont use words. I can count on my hand how many times im im postive ill have fingers left over. My faith is my trust in the unknown i guess? I guess i can never grasp the concept of freewill because my own mind will forever keep me incarcerated and will limit me. But i try. Maybe faith isnt helpfull to intelligent thinking. But to have things constantly explain to us just speaks of our self importance the world is marvelous and mysterious. 

Altho u make so prefect sense to me and is 100% reasonable. Still to me its pointless. U cant reason with god or faith. U cant reason why ur so right ya know? 

I think maybe proof is the wrong word in a lot of cases but sort of like justifications. You have justifications for why you believe what you do. I have justifications for why I "believe" what I do. I don't like to say that I believe in anything because believe isn't the right word. I understand some things and I trust other things and certain things just sort of feel right. Like with art which I think of as a religion, it's mostly because I know what feels good in my brain and I can compare it to when I was a kid and I got really into religion and I can compare it to watching ICP do their art, and there's this consistency. But then there's also data about brain chemical fluctuations and how they change for sex, and art, and drugs, and praying is all decidedly similar. And I'm not the only one who notices it! Kurt Cobain used to talk about how making music was a spiritual act, and others have compared their various arts and practices to drugs. I mean, if you take any art history class you'll hear all about how nature is divine and that we're constantly trying to worship through our senses. Exercise too! There's so many things that trigger these feelings in our brains. 

I mean, this is giving me that kind of rush right now. I love it. 

 

September 26, 2015
6:53 pm
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Insane Clown Posse are Agnostics that occasionally become so.exhausted by their hectic lifestyle that they accidentally mumble somwthing that promotes Christianity. This ia the answer. Your marvelous missing dink has been found. They aint sorry if they dicked you. They swing their asses and they're proud. Painted anus in the crowd. And their dicks hit you like POW! 

September 26, 2015
7:23 pm
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LuckyNumbrXIII said

Old Mr Dangerous said
Insane Clown Posse are Agnostics that occasionally become so.exhausted by their hectic lifestyle that they accidentally mumble somwthing that promotes Christianity. This ia the answer. Your marvelous missing dink has been found. They aint sorry if they dicked you. They swing their asses and they're proud. Painted anus in the crowd. And their dicks hit you like POW! 

#DrunkPostsMatter

I wish... havent drank in days... have extreme fever and am delirious as shit. On the plus side, today is the one year anniversary of our dispensary opening! The rotten part is I couldnt enjoy it wit them due to illness... they had live music, grub, vendor giveaways, did stellar business. . I could write a sad song of my own about missing that party...

 

i am so greatful to my fellow budtenders for picking up my slack the past couple days that I went up and gave them each a gram preroll cone apiece... full of such strains as Grape Ape, Pak 10, Wonder Kush, Skywalker and Arch Angel.

September 26, 2015
7:28 pm
scruffy
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Old Mr Dangerous said 
i am so greatful to my fellow budtenders for picking up my slack the past couple days that I went up and gave them each a gram preroll cone apiece... full of such strains as Grape Ape, Pak 10, Wonder Kush, Skywalker and Arch Angel.   

speakin of which, i didnt get mine. 

  awfully paranoid, arent you?   

September 26, 2015
9:55 pm
Old Mr Dangerous
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always got some herbage for the homies.. come thru Scruff. 

you could be an astronaut, an ass or not, you could be the kingpin of hash and pot! the world is yours... and fuck that, we will smoke a Mega Size j. With the wax trimmins, perhaps some live resin.

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