Um, @lucem-ferre, didn’t you call yourself a Juggalo on Lunatic. At the end, you were like, “why do I do horrorcore, cuz I’m a Juggalo”, I might have heard that wrong though. I see why you still come here though, people here are cool, underground music is cool. Don’t stop coming here either, this forum is where I get updates on your music. 

I’m a Juggalo until the day I die. Not really, I’m lying, after I die, I’ll still be a Juggalo.

I still might gather this year. We’ll see. 

It’s always been mainly about the music for me. I did go through what I’d call a phase where I’d dress like what you’d think a juggalo would and braid my hair (when I had it XD) and I’d subscribe to most of their beliefs mainly because I didn’t have a role model. It was important to me and I’d get angry at anyone trying to shit on icp. That being said, a juggalo  has never been who I am but what I am. The culture can be awesome at times and rotten at other times.

It’s cool to embrace the culture, but I think we make it out to be more than it really is. Juggalos apren’t any different than anyone else really. I’ve slowly started to realize this coming on here for the past few years. We(me too) like to act like there is no judgment between juggalos and we all belong but spending time on here will disallusion you of that.

That’s fine though, we are all human and that’s just what we do. I just don’t think, anymore, that the culture is what we try to make it out to be.

Yet I still keep coming back here even though I haven’t really been happy with this forum for a long while. That just attests to how much I do like most of you guys. As human beings, not juggalos.

Not sure what I’m tryna say here. Stream of concious shit I suppose

King Lucem Ferre said
Initially if an artist disappoints you, you’d move on (ignore Lil’ Wayne, Lil’ B, Nicki Minaj, etc.) but when the artist is marketing their music as the foundation for a way of life, that’s when in issue comes a long. See, ICP is the face of this culture. Their music is supposed to be the defining representation of this culture. If a juggalo doesn’t like what’s supposed to represent them, then it’s not so easy to just move on, now is it? This is the music you people choose as your identitiy. This is the shit that changed your life, saved you, and became a way of life. That fact has become the biggest selling point for this music. This is a business that is trying to sell you a culture, a family in the form of a cd. If you embrace those ideas and embrace the idea of being a juggalo and dedicate your identity to this, then it’s a lot more than just moving on from an artist. To me, I think it’s silly for a fan to feel entitled to anything. But for those of you who claim that juggalos are a family or a movement or a culture, there is a sense of entitlement that goes along with that.

Luckily, I’m not a juggalo so it’s easy for me to move on from shitty releases.

Dude.    [EDIT] FYI this was originally posted under a spoiler banner but apparently that function is not… functioning right now. So don’t yell at me about not having one. I had tried to keep it clean]

There is so much conflict in that. The only part I agree with is the *implied statement that for Juggalos in a Juggalo culture, it hasn’t been an easy adjustment over the years for those that feel that as THEY got older, that their favorite band hasn’t grown with them (to THEM).

Your “breakdown” of what ICP and Psychopathic are “doing” sounds pretty damn… I dunno… CONSPIRATORIAL! If the FBI were to take your lines into a court room, I could SEE how a room full of straights could EASILY call Juggalos a fuckin’ CULT! And I think I know why…

From the go, you have a couple things reversed.

Their music is supposed to be the defining representation of this culture.

The culture is a representation of the music; not the other way around. That’s the direction of the current. Juggalos didn’t come first and then they anointed ICP as the “official” Juggalo shot-caller; “This is what you are, this is what you need to do, thank me later for giving your life meaning…” There’s most definitely a symbiosis between them but ICP is NOT at the whim of their audience as to how THEY want to artistically express themselves. Presumably, based on Violent J’s talk on the subject; ICP, Twiztid, Blaze, ABK etc etc are the SOUNDTRACK to a people that ARE a culture and while they do inject thoughts, ideas and images INTO that culture; Juggalos are the RESULT of the music and not so much the other way.

The other stuff you mention after that…? Well, all I can say for that is… that’s fuckin’ LIFE.

Once upon a time, I myself was very much involved in an active music scene and lived long enough to watch it slowly fall away until I was almost the last one left at the party. As far as I was concerned, *I had stayed the same while everyone/thing else got co-opted by a new generation with no respect or INTEREST in what came before it. And maybe THAT is everyone’s problem. There’s a big difference between change without respect and change for the sake of it or to appeal to common interests…

This is the shit that changed your life, saved you, and became a way of life. That fact has become the biggest selling point for this music. This is a business that is trying to sell you a culture, a family in the form of a cd.

I personally find this [insert word that means disturbing and mildly disgusting at the same time].

There are just as many people out in the world that have said that NEIL DIAMOND has “saved their lives” and have made his music a part of theirs… or ELVIS… or fuck, I dunno JOHNNY CASH! So this “saved lives” thing that pops up should only be regarded as being anecdotal. They’re a BAND. Bands make MUSIC. MUSIC is transformative and powerful. IOW, let’s not get too fuckin’ carried away here!

…but when the artist is marketing their music as the foundation for a way of life, that’s when in issue comes a long.

That fact has become the biggest selling point for this music. This is a business that is trying to sell you a culture, a family in the form of a cd.

Really? Is that what you think they are “doing”? That’s just… wow. I can’t even articulate a proper response as to how creepy a thought that is and hope that’s not how you or others really think. It speaks to SO much premeditated manipulation and deceit on the part of Violent J and Shaggy. Do you really think that despite the reports of “low intelligence” amongst Psychopathic’s fans/FOLLOWERS, that these people can’t even think for themselves hard enough to be able to decide what kind of MUSIC they like?! That they’re not buying an album of music to listen to and enjoy but have been swayed into buying a bandaid for their life?

And again, I thinks this is because of the reversal in your initial perception. People aren’t makin’ themselves scrubs so they can be “more” down with the clown. Like, ICP isn’t trying to convince anyone to misguidedly go live under a bridge like fuckin’ fans of Kurt Cobain thought he was hinting at them to do… SOME were poor to begin with. Some will be. Some never will. But no one needs to be any of those in order to count themselves as a part of the fanbase of a band they like. Juggalos just HAPPEN to be one of those fanbases that are just OPEN to the kinds of people that usually aren’t as welcome. Was the Greatful Dead *SELLING* a “culture, a family in the form of a cd”? I think you really got the cart leading the horse.

If you embrace those ideas and embrace the idea of being a juggalo and dedicate your identity to this, then it’s a lot more than just moving on from an artist. To me, I think it’s silly for a fan to feel entitled to anything. But for those of you who claim that juggalos are a family or a movement or a culture, there is a sense of entitlement that goes along with that.

100% correct! I don’t disagree at all! But feel free to replace the word juggalo with the names for fans of EVERY OTHER FORM OF MUSIC!!!

While I can pick up on the empathy yer given there, the misplaced attachment you’re placing between the two changes what you think juggalos are “claiming” entitlement to; which in THIS case is the CULTURE not the music (as ever, IMHO[i ain’t doggin’ you]) Violent J has said on many, many occasions that -Juggalo- came about FROM the fans. It is THEY that came up with the word and shaped themselves, it was them that helped turned Faygo into a “thing” and they are the ones that made and do make The Gathering what it is.

Personally, I don’t call myself a Juggalo. YET. This year’s Gathering will be my third. I have EVERY intention of being at next year’s and plan to go to the Juggalo gaming convention Jumpsteady’s got planned a few months after this year’s… Knowing that they plan to move it [the gathering] and NOT knowing if they plan to move it farther away… I’ve told myself that if I DO make whatever journey I must for my senior year that I would get my Hatchetman. Cuz to the REST of the world, going ONCE is enough to get ya branded but after FOUR… I guess I just “iz what I iz”…

Exactly what Slum said, I don’t think this culture is nothing but a marketing scheme. J isn’t that bright. But it is the huge selling point for most juggalos. And I have seen juggalos intentionally stay scrubby to fit in, or use the juggalo title as a reason to stay scrubby. Nothing I said could be used in a court case because the lyrics are too contradictory and silly for any logical person to take literally. You have the stories where they put juggalo jihads on people but none of the lyrics have ever condoned killing. But they have taught juggalos to hate. Like juggalos will hate rednecks just because of Chicken Huntin’. Juggalos will hate rich people because of all the anti-rich lyrics. Juggalos will hate people just for being too mainstream because they said fuck the mainstream. Not all juggalos, but a large enough portion do and denying it is straight delusional. Also, quoting ICP to prove you don’t follow ICP is counterproductive.

“Juggalos are the RESULT of the music”

“The culture is a representation of the music”

Then how does the music not represent juggalos if they never existed before the music? If the music creates the culture it just backs up my initial point. Somebody joined a culture because of the music so when the music isn’t up to their standard it’s not as easy for them to break away as just a normal fan could. I’m not saying all juggalos are mindless drones, or that all juggalos are that dedicated to this culture just that for people that choose this identity it could be hard for a defining piece of your identity to change to something you’re not fond of.

Tidwell, there are plenty of juggalos that would get pissed off if you told them you aren’t an ICP fan. Tons of juggalos would scratch their heads in confusion. One could argue that the flake isn’t the one that dresses up like their favorite band but the one that uses the culture just to fit in. Which I guess would be me if I attend the gathering…

Jiffy, I recorded that song around 5 or 6 years ago. Even back then I was feeling like maybe this title doesn’t fit me.

Slum, that’s how I felt as a juggalo. Juggalo was something I was but not who I was. I decided that I didn’t fit the description anymore. And I know that’s how a lot of you think of it. But that’s not how all juggalos think of it. A good chunk of juggalos make that their identity.

You know, this is very interesting subject though. Because the one difference between juggalos and every other culture is that juggalos can’t agree on what a juggalo is. Everybody has their own perception or interpretation. And also should make some of you wonder why you call yourselves a juggalo at all.

Strange you sayin that lucem,within the last few months on a few occasions I’ve really questioned myself on what a juggalo is anymore

Lucem, you would think so but that really wasn’t my experience. Several people just love The Vibe or whatever. And maybe they bumped icp back in the day but we’re all old farts now and some of us got kids and it’s hard to take lyrics like “suck my nuts bitch, fuck you” as socially productive. As someone who literally couldn’t even name the tracks off of the last few twiztid albums, standing around and mentioning that you don’t bump them wasn’t met with scorn or ridicule or calling me a poser or whatever. Neither were the people who said they don’t like icp. 

I think the flake is the dude who shows up 110% and then becomes a hater in six months. Like there’s a cousin of mine who when he got into drugs also got into icp. Hatchet gear head to toe. Decals on his car. Everything. Then his drug buddies harassed him cuz that shit was corny and he looked / acted like a tool. So he stopped. Dude used to give me shit for not owning as much hatchet gear as him and now he gives me shit on Facebook because i still go see icp live. That’s the flake.

lucem-ferre Gimmie a sec, I’ll get back to you

@scruffy In reference to the question you asked the first time I posted above… I meant “branded” in the figurative/social sense not the white hot chunk of metal on my ass way. Over time, as my t-shirt rotation just happened to include more and more Twiztid and ICP shirts (not even one’s that make direct reference to the bands) people have just DUBBED me a “Juggalo” above and beyond any other associations I may have maintained for the last 15yrs. “ICP shirt = JUGGALO!!!”. Which is stupid and ridiculous on GP… but once one gets comfortable in a bubble… one forgets just how much and how MANY people do NOT like ICP. The stigma is STRONG!!! And that’s just talking about some TSHIRT bullshit! Gawd forbid you tell these same people that you’ve gone to a GATHERING for no other reason than because you WANTED TO!!!!

I’ve thought many times about getting a Hatchetman. Some shape, some version, some size. It’s a couple’a bucks… who gives a shit, right? But for me, the ink I *do have… I agonized over, searched for almost 10yrs before I finally settled on a specific artist and EVERY ONE of them (however flawed they turned out) represent everything I want them to say about me! I don’t take that shit lightly. I don’t do flash and I have never walked into a shop without anything but something specific in mind. Lasers be DAMNED! And if a person’s ink is supposed to represent the things that mean something or has come to pass in that person’s life… then I’ve placed that kind of “qualification” (my senior year) on *myself before I would put such a thing on me forever that I know carries so much weight and feel “entitled” to do so; not just to others but for myself…

@lucem-ferre back to this… Let me just first say: We’re just having a conversation. Straight up. I’m not goin’ in on you, I’m not callin’ you out fer *nuthin’! This is just dialog. Like, civilization n’shit. You put my name in a fuckin’ psypher! I got NOO salt for any beef.

But yer talkin’ about some nebulous fuckin’ concepts there, man! There’s no way we can get into a discussion about the effects and implications and developments that can and HAVE been created by certain bands/musicians throughout HISTORY!!! I mean, let’s just go back into the vaults of music history and blow each others brains out! This is some chicken and the egg shit with a bachelor’s degree hanging in the balance!

But to dial it in a bit… Of course a BAND has to respond to their audience but not all bands can claim to have a “culture” that has developed or evolved from them. And ICP is not the first or the last of them but are just as unique as the others. Special examples of musical human interaction…

Your INDIVIDUAL statements are all sound, solid points but taken as a whole, I really think yer generalizing beginning from a minority within a minority. The media perception of ICP and Juggalos may be of those groups you speak of but I gotta think you know better than that just by virtue of having been on these boards for so long.

The take on things you’re expressing seems either very “tunnel vision” or just very pessimistic about who and where the CORE of the Carnival actually lies. Personally, I am VERY sensitive to people “selling to me”. I can’t stand it actually. I don’t even like people coming up to me while I’m shopping, “Can I help you?” “Uhh… did I ask?”.  Your implication is that I was SOLD a culture rather than having warmed up to one over a long period of time?

[edit/clipping]

I’m running out of metaphor steam and can’t keep beating around a bush that’s got some pretty damn deep roots and grows in a VERY big field of discussion that can go for miles. Rhetorical slash moot shit. This is also one of those conversations that is better had in person so that it involves facial expressions and tone of voice n’shit… Goes much faster. Yer not “wrong” but I don’t think yer “right” either… and I sure as *hell find your “selling you a culture” thing a VERY debatable issue unto itself but… I’m done.

All I can point you to is the Goth/Hot Topic/Vampires episode of South Park… That episode meant SO MUCH vindication to old skool goths that have become so frustrated with what THEIR culture had been turned into. And it is spot the fuck on! (and if you recall Trey is a huge fan on The Cure so he had his finger on it fer shure). That episode is probably the best way I could try to illustrate to you EXACTLY what you are talking about as it applies to ANOTHER musical fanbase that has had a “culture” develop around it ( even though that culture wasn’t formed as fans of a SINGLE band but many) Watch it (it’s a two parter I believe), see the parallels, get back to meh… cuz I’m poped.

G’nuh