scruffy said
to split hairs a tiny little bit...  he didnt exactly say you are a bigot, he referred to 'your bigotry'. 

just about everybody has got a lil bigotry in em.  lucem, or somebody like that, could probably put together a long and accurate list of all of our various prejudices. 

 

all that said, 86...  when i read it, i considered it an unnecessary slam. 

Wise words. The basic principle of civil discussion was crossed I feel. Scruffy you are on the ball lately it is fucking scaring me that I agree with you as often as I do.

Psyral Infection said

Mr. Tidwell said 
... Trans women who are forced to use male restrooms are often beaten and raped. ...

Let's see some statistics. OFTEN? Really?

And with less than 1% of the general population in the US being transgender (http://williamsinstitute.law.u.....r-2011.pdf) the remaining 99% of the population needs to adjust for that? Is that really democratic?

And whether this will cause a problem with bathrooms and predators? A quick 5 second google pulled up various occurrences of people claiming transgender to allow themselves entrance into bathrooms and changing rooms specifically for sexual assault.

But I have found that I am transphobic anyway. Not because I have a fear of any kind (the definition of a phobia), it is because the use of concrete definitions is now considered transphobic. Relying on material evidence is also transphobic. Logic assessment of arguments - transphobic.  I have also found out what ISN'T transphobic. It is to accept what the trans community says without question or debate or else you are hateful bigot. At least that is my take on it.

Is the reliance strictly statistical and paper stats or do you require "physical" proof?

(Had to)

Also agree with you 100% (pending the type of "evidence" you require is not physical. I prefer to keep ladyman wangs out of my eyesight. Entirely preference though if it is anyones thing more power to you.

I am bigoted towards vegetables. No seriously, I eat 0 vegetables.

I'm kind of sorry I brought this shit up now, though I gotta say it has gotten me engaged back on the forum again.

And Lol for calling 86s comments bigoted but saying nothing about smacks open disdain. XD.

I get it though, Rob is passionate about this and probably didn't jump in until he was mentioned cuz he felt like he'd get shit on by the rest of us. Just so you know, I personally value your opinion as much as everyone else's and was waiting for you to weigh in.

86 said

Mr. Tidwell said

Slumerican502 said

86 said

the_smack said
or people born with a penis and born with a vagina can just deal with the hand they were dealt.

This^^ . I agree with this. There shouldn't be stuff like sex change surgeries. And I'm not concerned if that makes me sound intolerant or not. Eventually, there should be lines drawn. If you're born a man, you're a man, if you're born a woman, you're a woman. But if you're gay, then you can't help that. But that doesn't mean you all of a sudden need to be a different gender. I mean honestly now.

What about people like Buck Angel? He is a man with a pussy. Iirc he had both organs at birth. My head is so fucking twisted on this subject now and I don't know what to think anymore. I would say that most of these people can't help feeling like a different sex as much as gay people can't help their sexual orientation. Bad wiring. Or just different wiring.

I don't think buck angel is intersexed, I think he's a trans man who was assigned female at birth, but I don't know very much about him. He should definitely 

86's bigotry aside, there are a lot of issues with trying to make blanket statements about where people pee. Trans women who are forced to use male restrooms are often beaten and raped. That shouldn't happen. People should go pee where ever they feel safe.

I do know that if everyone is going wherever the fuck they want, I should be able to enter the women's bathroom as a straight man. Maybe I'll just start saying im Trans just so I can do some pervy skirt watching. I'm starting to like this idea more and more.

Don't do that. 

Did you just seriously call me a fucking bigot @Mr. Tidwell? FUCK YOU. Fuck you so hard in the ass with a cactus. I know it's a bad idea to get worked up on the Internet, but FUCK YOU @Mr. Tidwell . What bigotry have I expressed here? As soon as someone expresses an opinion that isn't yours, you're so quick to slap the "bigot" label on them. You are seriously the most annoying person on this forum. For fuck's sake, mr moral fucking authority here.

Bigot: One who is intolerant of others.

You said, "sex changes shouldn't exist" despite not knowing the first thing about a trans persons experience. That sounds rather intolerant.

Calling you a bigot doesn't hurt you in any way, but your stance that trans people shouldn't have access to surgery (when they want it, not all trans people want surgery / there are other ways of significantly altering your appearance without surgery) is literally wishing that some of the best people I know should have have to suffer their entire lives, lives that likely would have been cut short if they weren't able to live as their true selves.

Anyway, Smack is a worthless pile of shit that I can't be bothered to waste time on. I only responded when I did because someone tagged me. 

Psyral: What exactly is "undemocratic" about supporting all peoples right to live as themselves? It's great that your mental image of yourself mostly matches the body you have. No ones mental picture of themselves is exactly who they are because that isn't how brains work. Unfortunately, some peoples minds have in them biological differences that create a much different mental image. Forcing them to abide by YOUR perception is undemocratic. Letting them live their perception, helping them with hormones, surgeries, etc that they may require, referring to them by the correct pronouns and names, not fetishizing them etc are ways we can do that. Letting them use the restroom without fear of assault is another.

You think trans women aren't assaulted? At Stonewall, one of the gayest gay bars in the US: http://www.advocate.com/transg.....n-bathroom

Laws that limit the access of transpeople to restrooms will not stop predators from doing something illegal. Pretending that it will only seeks to hurt and punish trans people for existing.

Our species has relatively low sexual dimorphism, we create it out of the ether and apply it without much though to infants who will grow up to be radically different people by the time they are 5, and then again by the time they are 15. and then again by the time they are 22. and then again as they approach 30. We change rapidly and dramatically, physically, emotionally, psychologically. To pretend that we understand or know everything there is about the human experience and that the only things which exist are things which we are intimately familiar with is shortsighted, ignorant, and hostile to the existence of anything outside of our limited frame of reference. 

Forcing people to live within your perceptions is a violent and hostile act that literally ends in death for a large number of LGBT people.

• Most studies reveal that approximately 50% of transgender people experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetime. - Stotzer, R. (2009). Violence against transgender people: A review of United States data. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 14, 170-179
• One in ten transgender individuals have been sexually assaulted in a healthcare setting. Grant, J.M., Mottet, L.A., Tanis, J., et al. (2011). Injustice at every turn: A report of the National Transgender Discrimination Study. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality. Retrieved from http://www.thetaskforce.org/do.....s_full.pdf

Just about half of all trans people experience sexual violence, but yeah, it's a hypothetical. 

I know 8 transgender people, 3 of them are trans women, one is a trans man, and 4 are gender queer. One of the trans women I know is still living as a man in most circumstances and has severe mental health problems because o fit, addiction, suicidal thoughts, everything. She is a juggalo who doesn't feel safe in juggalo environments because she went to a twiztid show dressed as a woman, was warmly received by Jamie and Paul and was assaulted in a bathroom because she used the mens room (because while being dressed like a woman she was still perceived as male). Some drunk piece of a shit saw her and thought she was hot from the back and grabbed her, she turned around -apologized to him- and was assaulted. She tried to kill herself three days after that happened because the only sense of community she has ever felt rejected her. One of my gender queer friends who is also a juggalo doesn't go to the gathering because they were harassed by juggalos at a local show because the juggalos couldn't figure out  what kinda junk was in their trunk so to speak. The transman, one of my best friends, was married to a juggalo while he was living as a woman. His husband raped him repeatedly and told him 'I ain't no fucking faggot" after he came out as being transgender. He tried to kill himself when he became pregnant with his exes baby. He was raised not to believe in abortion and it took a lot of effort on his part to have one and save himself from a lot of fucking trauma. He's homeless and off the grid because his ex literally harassed him out of the world they shared together.

This isn't some bullshit morality tale. This isnt' about being cool on some fucking message board. Real people are living every fucking day with the consequences of comments about how they shouldn't fucking exist, or shouldn't have access to the medicine they literally need in order to survive, because you're afraid you might see some chick and get a boner only to find out she's got a bigger cock than you.

https://www.facebook.com/TheRealAmiriKing/videos/1047035278689805/

This is a local comedian that has a pretty good grasp on the situation and a decent solution.

Also Rob, don't put words in Psyrals mouth. That aint what he said and you know it.

I'm still torn on this one. What I think is undemocratic is forcing the vast majority of the population to comply to something that only applies to a small percentage. 

I mean, Isn't that in itself forcing perception on people? That was rhetorical. It is.

Plus, I don't think their plight is any worse than the common person, it's just different.

Life isn't easy for a bunch  of us. A whole bunch of us have suicidal thoughts or take prescription medication. 

I know it's been a long fucking ride for me so far.

I think the video I posted above had it right. Children's bathrooms and adults bathrooms. That is still and will always be the issue to me.

Though I gotta say it's mostly men preying on boys. Just last year there was a dude not 20 miles from me that got caught taking dick pics of a kid in a local fast food joint. It wasn't the first kid as they found other pictures on his phone.

If I can't go in the women's bathroom as a straight man to keep an eye on my kid, neither should any other man that identifies as anything else.

Also, that British dude in that video is fucking awesome and made me feel a lot better. Shit gets to me to the point where I feel like a piece of shit for thinking the way I do