CellE2057 said

chops said
Everyone claims to not believe in a higher power yet your ethics, morals, and basics of the usa law are based off the Christian religion. Right and wrong was determined by religion. so religion has shaped all of our lives whether you admit it or not. Doesn’t mean you believe but someone in your ancestry did at one point. However I find religion no different than magic, science fiction, etc. to believe in God one would also have to believe in other gods, ghosts, and other mythical creatures. You can’t have one without the other. It’s like saying it’s ok to kill a deer or ant but humans are off limits. No murder is murder despite the species

Nope. Morality, neither mine nor yours, comes from religion. Some one in my ancestry certainly did believe but I would argue that they didn’t get their morals from religion either. Even if I give you that the bulk of religions message is “Don’t be a dick to one another”, you still have to ignore the insurmountable “lessons” taught by most religion that tell you the exact opposite thing.

For example;

Christianity (I wouldn’t have used it specifically but you mentioned it so I’ll roll with it. Christianity certainly isn’t the only one to do it.), or more specifically, Christianities rule book makes it very clear that owning a slave is a-okay, they’re your property and you can pretty much do whatever you want with them (some restrictions apply. See Exodus and Leviticus for further instructions). Does that mean owning a slave is a morally responsible thing to do? I mean, it certainly is according to Christianity. Unless of course that isn’t where we get our morals. 

We get our morals for societal pressures. Turns out when you try to OWN other human beings, they get a little upset. If their message is heard enough, people will begin to see things from their perspective and our morals change. More specifically: we become empathetic to the issue. That happens enough and our ethics change. The same can be said about women, eating shellfish, recreational sex, bestiality, homosexuality, long hair, etc. etc. Our morals and ethics are what they are despite religion, not because of it.

This. Well said.

If anything, morals beget religion, not the other way around.

YakkAttack said
wow, am I glad I stayed out of this topic when it started. reading back the messages it could all be summed up like this.

1. Im an atheist, I dont need faith to be happy… I’ve never been happier then I am now.
2. So FUCK your religious, FUCK Christians, KILL THEM, KILL THEM, KILL THEM!
3. I found true happiness since I lost my faith
4. So FUCK YOUR FAITH!!!! You only need it because your scared to face the unknown. If ICP says JESUS, THEY CAN FUCK OFFFFF!!!!!! IM NEVER GOING TO THE GATHERING OF THE JESUS JUGGALOOOS! I HOPE YOU ALL DIE!!!
5. Im happy.

Ha, right… what ever u guys say. If thats what you guys consider happniess… I wont no part in it.
Juggalos always says that people are always intolerant of them, its a shame to see so called juggalos doing the same to others.

Seems like you got a wild hair for me and @lucem-ferre But, as other people have done on this thread, you remove context and have lumped things together in order to make your incorrect statement.

1. – Okay. That seems accurate. Although, by DEFINITION I am NOT an “atheist”, even MY views don’t fall into that completely. I don’t know what brand/label/sticker you’d wanna put on mine.

2. – Assuming you are referring to Lucem’s trolling of Lucky. Which is what that was… and he said so.

3. – Several people have said something to that effect but no one has said “since I lost faith”. None of us were priests or nuns or “of the cloth”.

4. – (I guess about comments *I’ve made) No. I have NO interest in going to a Gathering that is anything LESS than what it is and always HAS been; a ruckus, debaucherous, hedonistic people brought together for the love of the family and friends they’ve made for no reason that had anything to do with our belief in a “higher power” than that of the Juggalo Family following our own sense of right and wrong and not that of anyone else.

5. – Your negative point on this is… what?

And as far as your final comments are concerned… See, this is what @scruffy was talking about. Your perspective in your post is the kind of thing he and others like myself are concerned about having to deal with; walking around the Gathering getting the stink eye from people because I’m happy without the things you apparently need to feel the same way (at least according to Violent J and the comments in this thread). We didn’t need it yesterday but somehow we need it today. Why? I didn’t need to know about your faith in “God” yesterday… but somehow now TODAY I do. Why? It shouldn’t make a difference. But now it does.

WHY?

CellE2057 said

chops said
Everyone claims to not believe in a higher power yet your ethics, morals, and basics of the usa law are based off the Christian religion. Right and wrong was determined by religion. so religion has shaped all of our lives whether you admit it or not. Doesn’t mean you believe but someone in your ancestry did at one point. However I find religion no different than magic, science fiction, etc. to believe in God one would also have to believe in other gods, ghosts, and other mythical creatures. You can’t have one without the other. It’s like saying it’s ok to kill a deer or ant but humans are off limits. No murder is murder despite the species

Nope. Morality, neither mine nor yours, comes from religion. Some one in my ancestry certainly did believe but I would argue that they didn’t get their morals from religion either. Even if I give you that the bulk of religions message is “Don’t be a dick to one another”, you still have to ignore the insurmountable “lessons” taught by most religion that tell you the exact opposite thing.

For example;

Christianity (I wouldn’t have used it specifically but you mentioned it so I’ll roll with it. Christianity certainly isn’t the only one to do it.), or more specifically, Christianities rule book makes it very clear that owning a slave is a-okay, they’re your property and you can pretty much do whatever you want with them (some restrictions apply. See Exodus and Leviticus for further instructions). Does that mean owning a slave is a morally responsible thing to do? I mean, it certainly is according to Christianity. Unless of course that isn’t where we get our morals. 

We get our morals for societal pressures. Turns out when you try to OWN other human beings, they get a little upset. If their message is heard enough, people will begin to see things from their perspective and our morals change. More specifically: we become empathetic to the issue. That happens enough and our ethics change. The same can be said about women, eating shellfish, recreational sex, bestiality, homosexuality, long hair, etc. etc. Our morals and ethics are what they are despite religion, not because of it. 

As far as your point about how you see religion, I’m not quite sure I follow. Not that I disagree, I just legitimately don’t understand the point. 

to be fair, you are talking old testament. My understanding is christians dont use that as their book, they use it to explain their book, the new testament. The book you are talking about is more factually one of the jewish holy books.

ganjadude said
to be fair, you are talking old testament. My understanding is christians dont use that as their book, they use it to explain their book, the new testament. The book you are talking about is more factually one of the jewish holy books.

whoa whoa whoa, stop right there. this is a common sense free zone… im gonna need you to take that attitude somewhere else. just let him think me made a good point and got one over on someone, lol.

whoa whoa whoa, stop right there. this is a common sense free zone… im gonna need you to take that attitude somewhere else. just let him think me made a good point and got one over on someone, lol.

Why be a dick? Why can’t it just be a discussion? I haven’t attacked, nor did @ganjadude attack me. We’re both stating our side of the argument. That’s it. 

CellE2057 said

ganjadude said 

to be fair, you are talking old testament. My understanding is christians dont use that as their book, they use it to explain their book, the new testament. The book you are talking about is more factually one of the jewish holy books.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but fulfill it. 

That’s not out of context either. Jesus had just returned and was refreshing every one on where he stood on the old testament laws. Before that verse, it’s the “blessed are the meek” thing that everyone knows, where he’s reiterating the “love thy neighbor” stuff but around verse 12, he jumps into the “naw, the old testament was cool, guys.” stuff. It keeps going too. If Mark isn’t your thing there’s plenty more of it in the new testament. 

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Again, I recognize that context matters so here’s what’s happening: Jesus just went back to his old stomping ground and found people weren’t feeling him anymore. That’s his response. Not, the turn the other cheek thing but he says that what happened in Sodom and Gomorrah wouldn’t be shit compared to what he would do to them. I can keep going but that’s boring as shit so I’ll stop lol. 

I hear your point and I’ve heard it a million times, which only proves my point. If we get our morals from religion, why then do the religious IGNORE the moral teachings in their own book? Or more specifically here, why do they ignore it when their own messiah says “listen to the old testament because I, not only, stand by that but will one up it.” I would argue that it’s because they don’t get their morality from their books at all. 

FTR, i dont disagree with your point at all. I was simply pointing out that the books you initially quoted are not technically “christian holy texts” in the way the new testament is. 

i think people use it as a crutch, religion as a whole. regardless of the history of religion, today people use it as a crutch. 

having faith and having religion are 2 different things to me. 

Yakk, dude, come the fuck on. You and lucky are driving me fucking nuts here.

CellE2057 said

ganjadude said 

to be fair, you are talking old testament. My understanding is christians dont use that as their book, they use it to explain their book, the new testament. The book you are talking about is more factually one of the jewish holy books.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but fulfill it. 

why do they ignore it when their own messiah says “listen to the old testament because I, not only, stand by that but will one up it.”

Believe it or not, a loooong time ago I read the entire new testament. But sorry my friend… you got the meaning of the verse wrong. Now its been a while so I might have a tough time summing this up. When Jesus said I have not come to destroy but to fulfill the law he was talking about how the old testament points to a king (or messiah) who would come to set the world free (or something like that). so when he came preaching a new message people started trippin saying he preaching against what the old testament says… but hes like whoa whoa whoa, stop the clock… Im not here to destroy whats written but to fulfill whats written (the messiah that was prophesied about). long story short when he died and was resurrected he fulfilled the old testament. done. people are no longer slaves to the “law” (the old testament) people are saved through faith and grace alone.

so when people say Christians dont follow this law or that law from the old testament… it really doesnt make sense. thats all been fulfilled, we no longer under the law. hope that helps. its a million times deeper but i scratched the surface.