JuggaloJ said

...I support the majority of the Trump administrations domestic polices, and on that front may be the greatest of my lifetime. His administrations foreign policy I am far more critical of. His tariff wars annoy me. Even if I understand what he is going for I think it's some hardcore backwards 19th century nationalism shit. And most recently his pull out from the middle east is just horrid, no way around it. Every single last majorly respected General in our country is against it...but The Donald thinks he knows better, as always. 

Even though I chose to protest the ballot this past election I do not even judge people who were staunch Republicans that voted for Trump simply because they couldn't bring themselves to pull the lever for a Democrat. I 100% understand this AS LONG AS you still condemn the man that is Donald Trump. Those people still have dignity and moral fiber. If you cheer the man on and get excited to hear him speak and whatnot, you are a garbage person by definition, absolutely no way around it.   

So you can support some of his policies but not others? But if I do the same, I am to be beat down by your crew at the Gathering? Show me one of my posts where I support his hateful rhetoric. As I keep saying, I have disagreed with those things and have posted about that in the past but you insist I am giving him a pass.

What about all the other people on here who have not posted anything negative about Trump. They have not explicitly called out his behavior, unlike myself. Do they all deserve to be beat down too? What is the arbitrary line that you have drawn, and why is it ok for you like some of his policies while disliking the hateful stuff but if I do the same, I am the bad guy. 

I have asked many people on here (who constantly call me a racist or bigot) to find where I have posted anything racist or bigoted or even condoned such things (other than allowing them to post such stuff out of freedom of speech - which allows others and myself to know exactly who they are with no question) No one has been able to do so. I have, though, on so many occasions, posted against people who use someone's race or even point out the color of people's skin as being criteria for anything. 

But I guess, as you said, you "rightfully stand on higher moral ground" while I, who have done the exact things you accuse me of not doing, am a "garbage person." 

Oh well. I guess I will see you at the Gathering.

JuggaloJ said
If they prescribe to or are complicit in hate filled rhetoric, yes, that type of ideology deserves to be met with violence...what are like 75% of ICP tracks about again?? 🤔

Violence is an acceptable and beautiful thing when perpetrated against evil people.

I am not evil, I don’t excuse or give a pass to people that pander DIRECTLY to the KKK so....  

You're alright, man. Definitely the most thoughtful Republican I've ever encountered. Props.

I also agree. Violence is completely called for if it is able to prevent further wrongdoings. The message itself of, for lack of a better term "FITING BACK", is enough to prevent others from wrongdoing. 

Violence is an acceptable and beautiful thing when perpetrated against evil people.

I am not evil, I don’t excuse or give a pass to people that pander DIRECTLY to the KKK so....

JuggaloJ said

SteelCityDahmer said
Can't stand on a moral high ground when you threaten violence on people who don't see eye to eye with you. I don't believe anybody on here is actually racist, they're just trying to piss you off.   

As I well articulated it’s not about an inability to see eye to eye. It’s recognizing what constitutes being complicit in dispicable rhetoric.

I draw a line and stick to it. A line which I drew long before Trump ever tossed his hat in the political spectrum. Hence why I rightfully stand on higher moral ground. 

Next.  

All of that is fine and dandy but threatening violence on people you don't like because they believe in something you don't is pretty childish. You're gonna beat up somebody because their ideologies don't a line with yours? Isn't that similar to to the type of people you don't like? 

SteelCityDahmer said
Can't stand on a moral high ground when you threaten violence on people who don't see eye to eye with you. I don't believe anybody on here is actually racist, they're just trying to piss you off.   

I can absolutely stand on high moral ground while threatening violence.

As I well articulated it’s not about an inability to see eye to eye. It’s recognizing what constitutes being complicit in dispicable rhetoric.

I draw a line and stick to it. A line which I drew long before Trump ever tossed his hat in the political spectrum. Hence why I rightfully stand on higher moral ground. 

Next.

King Lucem Ferre said

 I think you missed my point which is that statistics don't tell the whole truth. What is the crime statistic based on? I bet it doesn't count crime it doesn't know about, or crime that doesn't get reported, or crime that doesn't get a conviction. Like the statistics on cops killing people have tons of blank spots because most areas of the country don't keep track of it. (well, at least the few years ago when I was looking these things up) I think racism is much more prevalent than you think. I've met way too many racist people. I get to hear what other white people say behind closed doors. I think Trump showed us that America has way more racists than we anticipated. We keep seeing so many examples of our system going out of it's way to hold black people back revealing themselves lately that I just can't stand by the idea that we aren't that racist. To be fair, on the other side of the spectrum, let's not ignore that being a white minority typically ends up with literal and blatant racism that never gets treated like the racism it is. I do agree that we are one of the least racist countries in the world. Japan, China, Iran, fuck. If you want a scary thought, look at Iran and the Iranian revolution and compare it to America and the alt-right movement.

I don't identify with any party but I definitely lean far more left and I do tend to 'SJW' sometimes, but I also tend to defend Republicans like you from unfair stereo types even if I disagree with the views. That should also be a part of 'social justice' in my opinion. It should include everybody, not just the golden star minorities that help further my agenda.  

I actually agree that statistics cant tell the (full) truth for reasons you already mentioned. But there are ways that good sociological studies account for these sorts of things (at least to SOME degree) to give us a general picture. It's not that I don't think racism is prevalent, it is, in all societies and aspects of life virtually. And yes Trump and his supporters showed that in America it's still very much here, but on an acute level versus overt racism (mostly)

It's the question of the actual act of discrimination. Which again I concede absolutely takes place every day America, somewhere to someone, but my argument was simply that I don't think it inhibits most peoples day to day life to the point of needing to play the hardcore victim card per say. Hopefully that makes sense without sounding insensitive to the issue, I promise I'm not. I just hold the view that more then the government has the ability to solve black peoples issues in society black people hold the power within themselves to address things within their own community, like black on black crime. Nobody, not even Hispanics come close to dying at the hands of gun violence the rate young black men do. I see it every damn day in my city. Hell, alot of them will tell you what I am saying their damn self. 

When I criticize SJWs I don't actually mean "social justice", look at New Zealand's criminal system, that's actually based on "social justice" and it's fairly progressive (the good kind of progressiveness lol)...

I am talking about outrage culture and the notion that if you can claim victim it gives you status/power, I hate that shit

Old Mr Dangerous said
Juggalo J, I am OMD. Nice to meet you. 

I just read the majority of this argument. I applaud you (and Bonesaw, and others) for being able to counteract these Trump folk's bullshit rhetoric with intelligence and, well, truth. When I try to talk politics on here, it quickly devolves into a rage filled threat fest on my side. My brain moves too fast for my fingers, always said. I cant intelligbly formulate an eloquent political argument on here against people like Krunk and Psyral. My brain just heats up too hot. The fact that I cant do anything physically or even just simply yell in person at them makes me frustrated and too spontaneous with replies. So I think you guys are doing well, but I am sure you all see it is in vain. There is no arguing with those two. Any Trump supporter in general, I feel. I haven't met one that proposed a sane argument in his favor. Never. Not even my dad, who unfortunately went down the Trump road. And he is quite intelligent. But not.

Anyway.... my question is this: why dont more Trump-opposing Republicans like you speak out? Or are you doing that, and I'm just not noticing? Some of my regulars at the weed shop are Conservatives and such, and I have seen a few coming clean about their views on the fucking faggot Trump. 

Because I feel like having a Republican president with sense isnt the worst thing in the world at all. I am basically liberal-leaning on most issues, about 80%, but i understand the need for balance and I actually despise anyone who is "hard line" Republican or Democrat (those who go blindly with their party no matter what). 

Also, I finally tried pineapple on pizza. It wasnt as awful as I'd feared. But it is still wrong. Kind of like Trump, but is as awful as id feared. Fear is the wrong word, because I do not fear him or his braindead cohorts. But we all knew this was a bad idea.   

Why don't more Trump-opposing Republicans like me speak out? Because admittedly we're few and far between. I saw many conservative commentators who condemned his rhetoric during the primaries but once he won the nomination most of them sold their soul and tossed their moral code out the window to advance their political agenda. 

It is true your support for someone should never be absolute. You should think for yourself and not be a sheep, which means disagreeing with other people, even those you staunchly support. But having a civil disagreement about policy is not the same as giving a "pass" to an individual stereotyping both their own constituents and people in general or pushing a fear/hate mongering rhetoric. That is something nobody with a moral core would give a "pass" to and chalk up simply to a "disagreement"...   

Trump Derangement Syndrome = code for "I cant understand why people like you stand for what is right and condemn shitty people like myself"

I support the majority of the Trump administrations domestic polices, and on that front may be the greatest of my lifetime. His administrations foreign policy I am far more critical of. His tariff wars annoy me. Even if I understand what he is going for I think it's some hardcore backwards 19th century nationalism shit. And most recently his pull out from the middle east is just horrid, no way around it. Every single last majorly respected General in our country is against it...but The Donald thinks he knows better, as always. 

Even though I chose to protest the ballot this past election I do not even judge people who were staunch Republicans that voted for Trump simply because they couldn't bring themselves to pull the lever for a Democrat. I 100% understand this AS LONG AS you still condemn the man that is Donald Trump. Those people still have dignity and moral fiber. If you cheer the man on and get excited to hear him speak and whatnot, you are a garbage person by definition, absolutely no way around it. 

JuggaloJ said
1. Yes I absolutely agree black people are targeted by police more then white people for crime due to my previous comments on stereotyping. They know black people, especially those who dress and present themselves a certain way, are more likely to be participating in criminal activity. This can actually be a useful tool in cracking down on crime, but is absolutely inexcusable in a just and truly free society. It is still true however by basically every measure I’ve seen statistically that black people do commit crime at a higher rate per capita then white (due to issues/challenges previously discussed).

2. Cops are more often then not pieces of shit - men with small dicks and an inferiority complex - they fuck with everyone, myself included. If they think you aren’t connected and they can get away with it, they’ll treat you like gestapo. I’m white and I suffer from police harassment on the regular, have for over 10 years, my entire adult life. I am under the assumption cops are no more/less “racist” then the average population (which is to say fairly contingent upon where you live). Hell, the only person I’ve ever seen killed by the cops (or to be more specific: the only person I’ve ever seen murdered with my own two eyes for that matter) was a white guy. Not saying unjustified fucked up shit don’t happen to black people, it does, but it also happens to everyone, cops are assholes. The fact black people suffer from it more often is because of what we addressed in #1

3. Yes I completely agree that white collar crime should be prosecuted equally as blue collar. Which is why black people who commit the latter at a much higher rate are incarcerated far more often then white people who are guilty of FAR FAR more of the prior. And one is not necessarily worse then the other by any means. Which is the bigger issue, not judges and prosecutors being racist. I’m far more likely to believe in modern day America that these types of people make their decisions based upon which defense lawyers take them out to dinner on the reg and are in their pockets etc, which I can assure you public defenders are NOT lol, which brings us to...

4. I don’t think in modern day America that racism is super prevalent (unless you go to the Deep South and/or Donald Trumps base) we are in fact probably the least racist country on earth to be totally honest. I don’t think we have a government system built against anyone. We have no laws on the books that discriminate against anyone, in fact if you’re caught in one of those housing type schemes you mentioned make no mistake you WILL BE sued, it happed to The Donald in the 80’s for EXACTLY that as a matter a fact, for discrimination against blacks for residency in his buildings. Or if you just do happen to be slick enough to avoid the law in some crazy loophole if the public knows about it you will almost certainly never be able to do business again because you will be ostracized, and rightfully so. There is no culturally excepting melting pot like this county on earth, trust me, I’m pretty well educated and traveled. Systematic racism is not nearly as big a boogie man as Democrats make it out to be. It’s a very small obstacle to overcome in this privledged nation compared to almost anywhere else you could be a citizen of. The problems black people face are the same as almost anyone else in poor/lower class America, white people included. It’s like starting a game of monopoly but some people already have most of the money and property on the board and you have jack shit, who do you think is gonna have tons of money and property still and who is gonna be stuck paying money at every turn and getting nowhere despite how long you play the game?! I think we all know the answer... some just make it their absolute goal and don’t give up, get incredibly lucky, and overcome the odds. But as my last post made sure to address, there is historical reasons behind why black people as a whole face these obstacles more then white Americans who have a much higher percentage of the population well off.

I acknowledge fully that there is rampant racism within the Republican Party, has been my entire life. And the Left uses this absolutely true fact as club to paint all Republicans/conservatives as rasist or condoning racism. A fair number of us don’t, we’re the Never Trumpers. The Republicans who have dignity and didn’t sell out their moral values. And I’m not worried about pushing Trump supporters away. They’re a lost cause. Even if they disagree with blatant racist things he says the fact they give him a pass for it speaks directly to their moral fiber and character. People who condone racism or turn a blind eye to it are every bit as guilty. They should all die. If these cowards do post pics of themselves online before they go to the gathering I will gladly post a pic of myself...let’s see how many random Juggalos I can get to do a massive stomp out of fake ass Juggahoes who condone racist rhetoric, I’m betting a HUGE crowd 😁  

 I think you missed my point which is that statistics don't tell the whole truth. What is the crime statistic based on? I bet it doesn't count crime it doesn't know about, or crime that doesn't get reported, or crime that doesn't get a conviction. Like the statistics on cops killing people have tons of blank spots because most areas of the country don't keep track of it. (well, at least the few years ago when I was looking these things up) I think racism is much more prevalent than you think. I've met way too many racist people. I get to hear what other white people say behind closed doors. I think Trump showed us that America has way more racists than we anticipated. We keep seeing so many examples of our system going out of it's way to hold black people back revealing themselves lately that I just can't stand by the idea that we aren't that racist. To be fair, on the other side of the spectrum, let's not ignore that being a white minority typically ends up with literal and blatant racism that never gets treated like the racism it is. I do agree that we are one of the least racist countries in the world. Japan, China, Iran, fuck. If you want a scary thought, look at Iran and the Iranian revolution and compare it to America and the alt-right movement.

I don't identify with any party but I definitely lean far more left and I do tend to 'SJW' sometimes, but I also tend to defend Republicans like you from unfair stereo types even if I disagree with the views. That should also be a part of 'social justice' in my opinion. It should include everybody, not just the golden star minorities that help further my agenda.

I just read the majority of this argument. I applaud you (and Bonesaw, and others) for being able to counteract these Trump folk's bullshit rhetoric with intelligence and, well, truth. When I try to talk politics on here, it quickly devolves into a rage filled threat fest on my side. My brain moves too fast for my fingers, always said. I cant intelligbly formulate an eloquent political argument on here against people like Krunk and Psyral. My brain just heats up too hot. The fact that I cant do anything physically or even just simply yell in person at them makes me frustrated and too spontaneous with replies. So I think you guys are doing well, but I am sure you all see it is in vain. There is no arguing with those two. Any Trump supporter in general, I feel. I haven't met one that proposed a sane argument in his favor. Never. Not even my dad, who unfortunately went down the Trump road. And he is quite intelligent. But not.

Anyway.... my question is this: why dont more Trump-opposing Republicans like you speak out? Or are you doing that, and I'm just not noticing? Some of my regulars at the weed shop are Conservatives and such, and I have seen a few coming clean about their views on the fucking faggot Trump. 

Because I feel like having a Republican president with sense isnt the worst thing in the world at all. I am basically liberal-leaning on most issues, about 80%, but i understand the need for balance and I actually despise anyone who is "hard line" Republican or Democrat (those who go blindly with their party no matter what). 

Also, I finally tried pineapple on pizza. It wasnt as awful as I'd feared. But it is still wrong. Kind of like Trump, but is as awful as id feared. Fear is the wrong word, because I do not fear him or his braindead cohorts. But we all knew this was a bad idea. 

I too believe in Trumps free speech right. He has a RIGHT to say it. Doesn’t mean I don’t recognize the rhetoric and I DONT HAVE TO STAND FOR IT. It’s called an opinion on a person based on the words they say and intentions they have...

I know, crazy concept *gasp* 

Why? Because I stand for what I believe in and any person who perscribes to that rhetoric or gives it a “pass” as you do means you don’t stand against the rhetoric, you are complicit in it’s advancement. 

I too have free speech. Glad you respect that. And there is nothing morally wrong with commiting violence against people who are complicit in advancing a message/rhetoric of hate. In fact it’s alot of what ICP and Juggalos unify around and and stand for together.

I concede that calling your daughter trash was inflammatory language and the only thing I don’t stand behind that I said. Kids are just that, kids. Unfortunately she will probably grow to hold the views of her parents making her in effect trash, but until she is a grown woman I shouldn’t speak that way on a child. For all I know she could break the cycle and condemn her parents compliance in garbage rhetoric and become a fantanstic stand up person. For this I crossed the line and I do sincerely apologize. 

But you and you’re wife ARE morally corrupt trash, as I have blatantly spelled out over and over again...I’m beating a dead horse at this point

end rant/ 

JuggaloJ said
The fact neither you or your wife will try to explain why you won’t condemn this man for his rhetoric shows you have no intellectual/moral ground left to stand on. 

Lets see some more of those intelligent meme’s...lol

Yet again another Trump supporter shows they can’t win a single argument. They’re too stupid/morally corrupt.

Trying to separate support for this president from support of his rhetoric means you are giving him a “pass”.

*mortal combat voice* FINISH HIM

You sold out your values for an advancement of your political agenda. Which makes you a moral whore with no dignity and someone who is NOT worthy of being called a stand up or decent person.   

I have explained that I have gone against things he has said in the past. There are past posts that show this. I don't condemn speech. I never will. Should I condemn the hateful and violent rhetoric you are saying against me? As a moderator on a forum that doesn't restrict speech, I am not going to do that. Very few forums would allow you to advocate violence against another member. Does the hateful and violent things you say make you a decent person? Have I said violent or hateful things? I have stated my disapproval of such thing on multiple occasions. I am not sure what you want me to say. You think I should condemn a person for things that they say that are violent or hateful, even if it includes you?

Lets see some more of those intelligent meme’s...lol

Yet again another Trump supporter shows they can’t win a single argument. They’re too stupid/morally corrupt.

Trying to separate support for this president from support of his rhetoric means you are giving him a “pass”.

*mortal combat voice* FINISH HIM

You sold out your values for an advancement of your political agenda. Which makes you a moral whore with no dignity and someone who is NOT worthy of being called a stand up or decent person.